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Debates

The Belivers Concept Of Bible Debate

 

 

 

 

V HAD written these points (and I responded to them): I think I as a Christian just included in my responses to you how I could see the justness of (God) condemning Hitler.

 

G: But Vitac, IF Hitler, at the last minute, according to Christian dogma, could do what is necessary to be saved and forgiven, how JUST and FAIR is the penalty of Eternal Torment in condemning thinking / non-believing Atheists? I, for example, have never killed anyone and I've never spent a night in jail. But, because I don’t approve of and I do take issue with an insane Biblical God’s murderous rep-sheet, I face the same Eternal Torment as someone like an unsaved Adolf Hitler? What rational human being could consider that to be JUST and FAIR? Point blank, would you send us to Eternal Torment for JUSTLY taking issue with God’s heinous and insane rap-sheet? God's rap-sheet is documented throughout the Bible, C&V.  

 

V: On the other hand as for condemning atheist, the reason Christians hold that they are lost is simply because God's universal law is that all sins must have the punishments taken.

G: If worshiping Jesus amounts to paying a bribe for special favor, I do not find that to be JUST and FAIR. Do you?

 

V: Since atheist are just the same as every other human being, a sinner, that like all people they have punishments coming for their sins. If that atheist dies without the benefit of having Jesus having been counted as the punishment for his sins in his place, then that atheist, like all sinners in the same situation, while have to take their punishments for themselves.

G: Another great difference between my values and a Christian believer’s - I do not view it JUST and FAIR for another to pay for my sins, errors or mistakes. A Christian believer is trained to look to another or others to pay for their mistakes / sins. Can you not see that to be a severe mental / emotions / character flaw? It is delusional.

 

V: However the punishments for sins and the need for Jesus' intercession is not an Atheist issue, or a Jewish issue or a Buddhist issue, or an issue confined to any group. It is a universal issue of all humanity, that all are sinners and all need salvation from the punishments that are to be requited to them for their crimes.

G: That “international issue” is a bad model for humanity. Can you not see that?

G: So, Hitler could get a second chance with God by renouncing his former behavior?

V: That's the deal God is offering to humanity in general.

G: So, to do .000000001% bad compared to what Hitler did gains you the same JUST and FAIR Eternal Punishment? And, Hitler, last minute can just repent and go to Heaven? Sorry V, I don’t buy into that super-corrupt agenda and I do not respect the tyrannical author of that agenda - and I stand against the gullible, fearful believers who support, promote and finance such a tyrannical agenda.  Reality and sanity would claim that believers of such nonsense are dead wrong!

 

V: By presenting humanity with HOPE despite their admitted mistakes before God, God is using amnesty as a source of encouragement for them to reform and make the world a better and more loving place.

 G: Seriously V, look at the world and its ugly history. The wars - the tyranny - the greed - the murders - the pain. That’s the reality of this insane God’s pre-destined, super-sick, amnesty / salvation agenda. There is no supernatural God to sacrifice to. There is only a ridiculous, irrational belief in sacrificing to this fictitious God.

 

V: God is showing the benefits of mercy in this opportunity, that mercy given to the deserving is very productive in bringing about the good of all.

G: About 1 out of 130 US mostly Judeo-Christian citizens are in the prison system. That’s a higher percentage than any other nation on planet Earth. That best describes the “benefits” of God’s opportunistic mercy. It has NOT and does NOT work – does it?

 

V: Now if any sinner thought he had gone beyond God's ability to forgive, then that sinner would not only be unmotivated to reform, but also the world would be diminished as a result of not having one more person become a starlight of goodness in the world.

G: Again, the criteria of Christians being “better” does NOT exist in reality.

 

V: We cannot therefore imagine there is a limit to Jesus ability to settle the account of a sinner, no matter how bad his conduct had been. Jesus didn't take the punishments of such severity for mankind, just so that it wouldn't work.

 

G: Jesus and God’s batting averages are very low, V. Atheists are no more evil than the believers. “I believe” means “I don’t know” 100% of the time. Most Atheists don’t believe as we prefer to know. If something is not worth knowing, I’m not much interested.

 

V: This very point of trust is where we actually place faith in Jesus and say in our guilty ridden heart, Jesus can save me and it will work. Jesus does not lie and Jesus can be trusted to come through for me. This is the faith we must have and the hope we promote to sinners.

 

G: Matthew 9:18-25 While Jesus spoke, there came a certain ruler who worshipped him, saying, my daughter is dead, but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. Jesus said the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. They laughed at him. Jesus went in, took her by the hand, and the maid arose.

 

If the ruler's daughter was dead, then, Jesus lied. If she was not dead, then Jesus performed no miracle. C. Dennis McKinsey

 

Matthew 10:5-6 Jesus said: Go not into the way of the pagan (Catholic) gentiles (KJV), but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

What? Jesus loves Jews more than others? Did Jesus lie?

 

Matthew 12:40 The Son of Man (Jesus) will be three days and three nights in the heart of the Earth.

 

Was Jesus actually put in the heart of the Earth? How can “Good Friday” afternoon to before sunrise Sunday morning qualify for 3 days and 3 nights? Did Jesus lie?

 

Luke 19:27 Jesus said: But My enemies, who would not have Me reign over them, bring them before Me and slay them.

 

If the no-name King Jesus referred to in his parable is Himself, did Jesus lie?

If you don’t accept Jesus you will suffer Eternal Torment is the parallel teaching.

 

Revelation 2:23 Jesus (The Son of Man) said: I will also kill her children... KJV

 

Did Jesus lie here in Rev 2:23?


Mark 10:18 Jesus said: Why do you call Me good. No one is good but God alone.

 

Did Jesus lie about himself not being good?

 

Luke 10:19-20 Jesus said: I have given you the power to tread on serpents and scorpions and upon the full force of the enemy and nothing will hurt you.

 

Did Jesus lie?

 

Mark 10:26-27 Who can be saved? Jesus said: For human-beings, it is impossible…

 

Obviously, all Christian believers believe Jesus to be a liar here - as they try to convert you.

 

Mark 16:15 Preach the gospel to every creature

 

Does this qualify to be a lie?

 

John 3:13 Jesus said: No one has gone up to Heaven except the One who has come down from Heaven, The Son of Man.

 

But, when Jesus said this, Jesus, Himself, had not yet gone up to Heaven. If Jesus, Himself, is the only one to have gone up to Heaven, doesn’t that contradict and eliminate Enoch’s going up to Heaven in Genesis 5:22-24 and Elijah’s going up to Heaven in a whirlwind in II Kings 2:11 and Angels going up and down, to and from Heaven on "Jacob’s Ladder" in Genesis 28:12? So, did Jesus Christ utter a falsehood here? Did Jesus get caught in documenting another lie?

 

John 4:22 Jesus said: You people worship what you do not understand. We worship what we understand, because salvation is of the Jews. KJV

 

What? Salvation is a racial thing? Didn't Jesus make a racial statement? Or, did Jesus lie?

 

John 5:21-22 As God raises the dead and gives life, so does the Son give life to whomever He wishes. Nor does God judge anyone, but He has given all judgment to His Son.

 

God judges no one? Did Jesus lie?

 

John 8:15 & 12:47 Jesus said: I judge no man. KJV

 

Which lie do you prefer?

 

John 5:34 Jesus said: I do not accept testimony from a human being… Catholic

 

If you pray to Jesus, then you must judge that Jesus lied about not accepting human testimony.

 

Matthew 5:29 Jesus said: If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out, throw it away.

 

Did Jesus lie?

 

John 5:31 Jesus said: If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. KJV

 

Does Jesus admit to being a liar?

 

John 5:41 Jesus said: I do not accept human praise… Catholic

 

Why would you praise Jesus Christ unless you view that Jesus lied about not accepting human praise?

 

John 5:45 Jesus said: I will not accuse you. The one who will accuse you is Moses

 

Is there an honest, truthful Christian who would say that Jesus lied about this? Would you, V?

 

You said, Sir V: “Jesus does not lie and Jesus can be trusted to come through for me.” Do you now still hold to that claim?

 

V: You know the woman who was the plaintiff in Roe vs Wade, which made it legal to get abortions? I forget her real name, but at any rate she became a Christian and accepted Jesus as her savior. Even though she was facing the just punishments of so many millions of innocent deaths, Jesus took that punishment for her.

 

G: Because you now know that Jesus is documented Bible C&V to have lied about things, are you using questionable dogma to support your claim?

 

V: She stated that after she renounced her past, that she felt the weight of the world lift off her shoulders. Not only that there was joy in heaven and among those Christians who accepted her as a reinvented soul.

 

G: Come on, V. There is no way you could KNOW that. You can believe, visualize and fantasize that you can walk through walls. You absolutely KNOW that does not make it so. Here’s the kicker – if it is not so, it is a lie.

 

V: The world has become a better place because one more person has adorned themselves with the light of goodness. So you see that condemnation of evil is not the actual quest of the Christian message, but the offering of hope to sinners and the propagation of goodness in the world through the offering of HOPE and Salvation.

 

G: V, with all due respect, you are preaching and preachers are such great liars.

V: For the world to actually become a better place, the sinner needs to recognize his mistakes and turn away from them. This is why Christianity focuses on sin in the sinner and calls him to repentance.

 

G: But, in reality, it is all based on lies – and, it does not work.

 

V: Then he needs the Hope of forgiveness so that he will be encouraged to continue on his quest of being an agent of goodness. This is where Jesus comes in for the sinner. In all respects it is a consistent and inter-working message of repentance and forgiveness toward the goal of filling the earth with those who exhibit and extend the love of God toward all humanity.

 

G: You can debate me, V – but, do NOT preach to me!

Gary: Eternal Torment is a misrepresentation?

Vatic: Gary, if we are to trust the words attributed to Jesus, and I think in this case we can, then it is patent that Jesus spoke of various degrees of punishments for sinners according to the severity of their offense. He spoke of "Greater condemnation", "Lesser condemnation", "required more stripes", "required fewer stripes", etc etc.. So yes, it is a misrepresentation of God to suggest a person who sinned little will be dealt the same punishments as those who did great offenses. God is just and we must trust that basic principle. Nevertheless we see from punishment examples, that it is severe and includes mortality. This is why even the mildest sinner needs salvation in order to repeal, if nothing more than his mortality, and thus be raised to eternal life as Jesus was.

 

I personally have no desire to share Eternity with those lying, deceiving, tyrannical characters not the clergy / believers who promote them.

BTW Gary, in reviewing my own responses to you, I saw I was just as guilty of digressions from the topic as I stated you were. So if you would, by virtue of this admission, please excuse me.

 

G: No sweat, V.


V: As you see, I did refocus on the topic and left the asides for other times. And as promised, I did get back to you on your message and I hope you will acknowledge that, and believe it, now that you have seen it, even though you might think it out of character for a Christian to do such, as you stated.

 

G: You are appreciated because - I luvs ya man!

 

Regards, Gary DeVaney

animated bar lines

 

From: T F
Date: 12/5/2007 10:29:34 AM
Subject: challenge
 
Gary:  Thanks for your response to my column, I really appreciate it.
 
Hi TF. Thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply. I'll share it with our panels.
 
Concerning your inquiry, I'm only going to give you one example of God doing something good for someone without hurting anyone else, because if this example doesn't satisfy you then nothing ever will.  The verse I'll give you (one of many that could be cited which focus on the glorious sacrifice of the Cross) is John 3:16:  "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
 
G: The challenge was for a Bible C&V verse that proved God did something "good" for someone without hurting someone else. Unless Jesus Christ stepped out of his human body into His "transfigured body" as described @ http://WWW.thegodmurders.Com/id113.HTML then Jesus Christ was hurt - which (God's agenda aside) certainly fails the challenge.
 
By this one sacrifice, God has done, is doing and will continue doing ETERNAL GOOD to untold hundreds of millions of people around the world, myself included, by blessing us with the gift of eternal life and innumerable other blessings that go with it.
 
G: Some claim that Jesus brought Hell into the fate of humanity. If carried out as documented, that will hurt millions for eternity following "Judgment-Day". With "Eternal-Torment" the punishment cannot fit the crime. Ezekiel 28 displays that we perish while John's Revelation displays the more clergy-favored "Eternal-Torment". The salvation by Jesus comes by the blackmail and extortion of total obedience to God - or else. If you claim this to be "good", you have to admit many who don't make it will be hurt for eternity because of God's "good" Eternal-Torment agenda. What if you found out that you were confused about your "salvation" and you didn't make it?
 
Now, you may say that God had to hurt Jesus by doing this, but that would show a supreme lack of understanding of biblical truth.  
 
G: Are you saying that the "truth" is Jesus Christ was not hurt? Are you sure we are understanding the defining of "truth" here?
 
God's Word consistently teaches that Jesus IS God (one verse:  "In the beginning was the Word [Jesus], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," John 1:1).  So God essentially sacrificed (hurt) Himself -- and only Himself -- by setting aside His glory as the Second Person of the Triune God and lowering Himself to take on human flesh and carrying out this one immeasurable, incomprehensible act of goodness. 
 
G: If Jesus is God, we are reflecting on a severe case of masochism. No wonder the Biblical God can inflict Eternal-Torment on human beings as He inflicted anguished pain on Himself. This might be a case of: "Do onto others what you have willingly done unto yourself. I have hurt myself - so, I am entitled to hurt you too. I, God, survived my few hours of torment - but, in your case, you will be in torment for eternity. In My "perfect" value system, that is obviously fair - because, I say it's fair. You shalt worship Me, love Me, serve Me, obey Me and repent to Me constantly during your lifetime so I may select you to worship Me, love Me, serve Me, and obey Me for eternity.
 
I must also say that your reasoning regarding barren women in the Bible is completely flawed.  Again, as I pointed out in my column, if you're going to debunk Christianity then you have to do it according to its own claims (specifically, the immutable truth of God's Word, the Holy Bible). 
 
G: TF, Bible C&Vs are the sources I used - and always use. What can be more the truth than the "Holy" Bible C&Vs I used. You do believe those Bible C&Vs - don't you?
 
God's Word clearly reveals that all of the pain, suffering and death that the world has ever known was caused not by God, but by man. 
 
G: The builder / creator has no responsibility for what He builds / creates? Some just can't be blinded with that "logic".
 
God created the world in perfection but man rebelled and in so doing brought sin into the world, and with it all pain, suffering (including barrenness) and death. 
 
G: Obviously, God built man with a rebellious gene. You really can't have it both ways in reality. Of course faith / fantasy does say and does claim much that reality can't concur with. 
 
God is now in the process of undoing OUR damage, and that's why Romans tells us even the created world awaits redemption (restoration) at His return. Thus, God did good to every one of those women when He blessed them with children; 
 
G: God's agenda was to make those poor, miserable, begging women barren in the first place. By the way, God id the most miserable Character in the entire Bible. Can you think of one depicted to be more miserable throughout?
 
He did good to Lazarus when He raised Him from the dead; 
 
G: Only to die again.
 
He did good to every person He cleansed of leprosy, healed of blindness and diseases, and so on. 
 
G: Jesus refused a non-Jewish woman to heal her daughter. His dialog was racist and He even referred to them as dogs.
 
 

Matthew 15:22-28 A Canaanite woman asked Jesus to heal her daughter. Jesus ignored her. His disciples asked Jesus to send her away. Jesus replied that He was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel. Jesus then said: It is not right to take the food of the children and throw it to the dogs. She appealed to Jesus: Please Lord, even the dogs eat the scraps that fall from their master’s table. Jesus healed her daughter.

 

What? Did Jesus, in Matthew 15:26-27, refer to this woman and her poor, sick daughter as "dogs"? Jesus rejected the woman because she wasn't Jewish. Then, after the woman groveled like a dog, Jesus healed her daughter. Does this documented model of Jesus require all, or at least some of us, to beg Him to save us like groveling, begging dogs?

 

What defines the characteristics of a name-calling racist? Weren’t Jesus’ initial comments to her those of a stubborn, name-calling racist? How did Jesus respond to the woman before she outright begged Him? Are there self-admitted Christians who are stubborn, name-calling racists? Does this Jesus model inspire Christian racism? I'll bet that today if Don Imus or any on-camera politician said that to a poor woman and her sick daughter, they would be publicly condemned to be a name-calling racists.

 
He did good to Daniel when Daniel was thrown into the lions den by an evil king and God shut the mouths of the lions,
 
G: God's set up that agenda to show His power to all involved. This same God arranged for 42 children to be torn-apart by two she-bears. II Kings 2:23-24
 
He did good to Joseph when Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers and imprisoned by a false accusation but God raised him up to the right hand of the Egyptian ruler and used him to preserve the people of that day,
 
G: God's agenda was for Joseph to suffer prison for years (that hurts) and then everybody suffered famine before any good came out of it for God's chosen. That along with the killing of Egypt's firstborn later was all just to let everybody know who was God around there.
 
He did good to Abraham when He fulfilled the promise of Isaac's birth supernaturally (long after Sarah was of child-bearing age), and on and on and on, all without hurting anyone at all in any way.
 
G: Putting a knife to Isaac's throat before being pulled off by an  interceding  Angel is first-degree child-abuse. There is no mention of any more dialog between Isaac and Abraham or between Sarah and Abraham after that heinous incident. They both probably had enough of good old Abe.
 
My question to you is:  How was God able to write so much of human history in advance in the pages of the Bible, by hundreds and often thousands of years, and reveal so many scientific and other truths in Scripture long before these truths were "discovered" by man?  For more on this, read a couple other columns I wrote:
 
 
Date: 12/16/2007 5:38:04 PM
To: T F
Subject: Gary's response to T F
 
   
From: T F
Date: 12/15/07 22:28:40
To:
garydevaney@embarqmail.Com
 
Gary:  As a general rule, I don't debate the Bible because I know the rejection of God's truth is always willful rejection. 
 
Hi T. Thanks for responding. I'll share it with our panels. Let me say that most believers don't debate specific Bible C&Vs because they can not. My Christian conversion link on the topic (the Christian breaking of free-wills) is located @
 
 
Christian believers will avoid the specific C&Vs taken issue with every excuse imaginable. That's normal  - and I now, unfortunately, expect it. After 25 years of hopeful debate, Christians always leave me wanting - but, I've politely gotten used to it. They just will not debate nor address my selected C&Vs. Those Bible C&Vs are God's word. As an experienced columnist, you may be able to explain why that is always the case to everyone. If what I say by taking specific issue is incorrect, what is the specific correction? They don't offer one. Instead they offer threats and condemnation. Why?
 
T: God has revealed His truth to mankind through the unseen proof (the inner knowledge of His existence, or conscience) and the seen proof (the created world), see Romans 1:18-21, in addition of course to the eternal proof (God's Word, the Holy Bible). 
 
G: "God revealed His unseen truth". LOL! I luv that! Again, What we do get back is a dose of threats from believers. They don't even try to debate our Bible C&V selections. What is usual are threats and promises of Eternal Torment if we don't break our "free-wills" and obey God and Christian dogma. Let's see what your C&V selection says. Romans 1:18-21: "For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth of unrighteousness." "There is no excuse for them not to be known." Sorry, TF, but again, this C&V example did not debate or address any specific C&V that I have taken issue with. Your C&V just contributed to the threat tradition. It could be used to curtail the exposure of any one of a thousand controversial C&Vs that my web site has posted. It qualifies as argumentative for control purposes (designed to stop your opponent from doing what he is doing) rather than debating the topic taken issue with. Because I do not obey this God's heinous commandments, these threats that are issued by the authoritative believer are questionable as to their relevancy to the Bible C&V that was taken issue with. 
 
T: Now, man in his depraved state will reject these proofs and can even deaden his own conscience, as Scripture tells us, through the continual rejection of God's Word and spurning of the Holy Spirit as He convicts and woos him.
 
G: I don't reject "God's word". I deal with "God's word", C&V. I specifically take issue with "God's word" as "God's word" is written, C&V.
 
T:  But the proofs have been given, and as such an unbeliever's problem is not the ones you present (intellectual);  rather, they are rooted in man's sin nature (moral). 
 
G:I just select and expose Bible C&Vs that put the Biblical God in an evil light. The Bible displays these C&Vs. I did not write those Bible C&Vs and I am not responsible for what those Bible C&Vs say. I am not responsible for how believers feel about what the Bible documents, C&V. Why believers promote those C&Vs and how believers defend them is what is debatable. They just will not address them. So, why do believers prove to avoid selected portions of "God's word" if they truly believe in God's word? Not me. They only demand for dumb-down obedience. Tom, I don't do obedience to the Biblical "God's word" - and neither do you. I'll prove it too you. I am confident that you have not killed any girls who are not virgins, disobedient sons, gay men or people who work on the Sabbath. These are selections of God's 613 Old Testament commandments. Aren't they? Ask any Rabbi. Neither you nor I have obeyed these Biblical "God's word" commandments - have we? You might. I won't. My set of morals are better and more moral than the Biblical God's morals prove to be. So are yours - if you have the courage to be honest. Can you see how different and better your morals are than God's "Kill every man, woman and child" morals?
 
T: As Jesus taught, men love darkness and so they reject the Light of Truth, pretending they're doing it (and perhaps in some cases thinking they're doing so) on the basis of science and/or reason but never really.  And that leads to the next verse in Romans:  "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" by hardening their hearts to God's eternal truth and love. 
 
G: Do I not also expose the "LIGHT" by exposing Bible C&V? Are you admitting that the Bible has a DARK side? Wise or foolish - God and believers don't care if there is a dark side. They only want my obedience. They demand that I love God - or else. Due to the Biblical God's heinous rap-sheet, I will give neither love nor obedience to this God. What's a believer going to do other than condemn me for my honest C&V exposure and my logical conclusions concerning those C&Vs. They protect this murderous God as Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, Pol Pot and George W. Bush have been and are protected by blind, mind-set believers concerning their murderous deeds. They all lied to the world about their agendas. And conditioned believers are the best targets for successful liars - aren't they?
 
T: You have obviously considered God's Word and clearly rejected it, so all I can do is pray that God will by His Spirit bring you to the knowledge of the truth and, more importantly, bring you to the place where you will TRULY be open to receiving it.  Indeed, I have been praying for you and will continue to do so. 
 
G: Praying is obeying, T. And, personally, I would never tell this angry God, real or not, how to do His business by praying to Him.
 
T: You're obviously not at that point as of yet so I don't expect any response I give or argument I make to satisfy you -- they will only lead to more challenges.
 
G: Tom, typically I took issue with specific Bible C&Vs / God's word. Typically, you have not addressed one C&V that I took issue with. Believers just cannot debate or successfully defend their own God's word. Interesting, but hard to admit, isn't it?
 
 T: Nevertheless, I have responded to some of your questions here.
 
G: But you preached rather than debated the Bible C&Vs that I took issue with. Didn't you? You have a column. You should have the skills and tools to debate Bible C&Vs with skeptics and critics - shouldn't you?
 
T: Sorry, but your Bible oddities with Jesus impregnating His earthly mother (even YOU don't believe that's an accurate description of the supernatural work God did with Mary detailed in the Bible, having nothing to do with the human sex act but rather a creative miracle leading to conception),
 
G: No, you are absolutely correct. I don't believe in the Trinity - but if a believer claims that Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, you can not determine one factor to be true without determining the other factor to be true. Can you?
 
T: "love thy enemy"/eternal punishment (personal ethics Jesus taught believers, or how men should treat other men, as opposed to God's righteous judgment of all mankind) and the like can't be taken seriously. 

G:  Which of these do you view cannot be taken seriously? Which of these C&Vs do you view does not qualify as "God's word"? Do you confess to be a non-believer here? Or, do you pick and choose what is God's word by Bible C&V and what is not? If I were a believer, I'd worry about doing that.

T: These and many other similar arguments have been made over and over again, and somehow the answers never seem to suffice.
 
G: Never-the-less. I select specific controversial Bible C&V issues. The believer then just preaches something irrelevant to the C&V taken issue with, threatens and condemns his opponent, then usually claims some sort of victory and departs. If God were constantly defended that way in court, a proper judge would soon find the "defense" to be in contempt of court.
 
T: Nor will they for unbelievers apart from the Holy Spirit's intervention and an individual's willingness to open himself to truth.
 
G: The Holy Spirit doesn't seem to successfully help believers in these debates.
 
Your input and participation is always welcome, TF.
 
Regards,

Gary DeVaney

 

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Debate with PT
 
by Gary DeVaney
 
 
 
 
Gary had written: A believer cannot question what he believes. If he did, he would prove not to believe. So, once committed to belief, the power for the believer to question God or the Bible is gone.
 
PT wrote: Or maybe it's because of the Holy Spirit. Maybe you should look at the passages and really think about what it's saying.
 
G: What Holy Spirit? "Thought" is the most supernatural or spiritual quality that human beings have. Outside of "thought" (imagination / memory / creativity), there's no evidence of any Holy Spirit or any thing else that can be considered "supernatural". Produce some thing that you identify to be "supernatural". In reality, you can not and you will not. You too can walk trough walls - in your imagination, only.  
 
PT: To me it appears as though your site appeals to emotion too much...
 
G: "Emotions" (do wants / don't wants and their intensities) are covered on "The Authority Addiction" page @
 
 
Emotions assist thoughts to be remembered. If you attach a feeling to a thought with some emotional intensity, chances are, memory will take place. Conversely, if you don't attach a feeling to a thought, with some intensity, memory probably will not take place.
 
PT: ...it's as if you want to find something wrong with God.
 
G: LOL! I see that not much gets past you. Did you browse "The God Murders" and "God's Evil Deeds" to figure that out?
 
G: In reality, should you or I or anyone else, fight to live, we do not give God permission to take our lives - do we? In fact, if someone is terminally ill and struggles to survive, isn't that person actively defying God's "will" to kill them? If this were true, wouldn't God consider life-saving doctors and medicine to be evil? Some Christian Scientists have fanatically supported that perspective and have allowed their sick or injured children to die without medical care.
 
PT: It's according to God's divine plan, right now he doesn't want us to die. So we live and he gives us the ability to make choices of how to live our life. Nonetheless if God thinks that our time is up then our time is up.
 
G: Yes. However, according to Christian dogma, on "Judgment Day", if you fail God's divine test, you will suffer "Eternal Torment". "Eternal Torment" is an overkill sentence. That sentence certainly does not fit the crime. Even if an person should commit a full life of crime, which nobody does, he or she should not be punished and tormented for all eternity. This God is a tyrant and a monster to have such a "divine plan" put into existence. People, who make other people miserable because they did not live up to their specific expectations, follow this ugly model. And we wonder why people cannot get along and why the world is such a mess.
 
G: Was Satan ever documented, C&V, to kill anyone in the Bible? Not really. But if you think so, was God behind Satan's killing them? God did have Bible documented "Death Angels" that He used to murder masses of human beings.
 
PT: It's in the book of Job. Yeah, I guess you could say that God was behind it, nonetheless you just wanted a time when Satan kills right? You should be aware he killed many people spiritually.
 
G: Where does the Bible document, C&V, that Satan killed people spiritually? God was guilty and God would be tried for the murders of Job's children and servants. Again, those murders fulfilled God's agenda to show Satan Who was right and who was wrong.  Satan, and the other "Death Angels" never did any murdering, as documented Bible C&V, on their own - did they?  
 
PT: This will take a while to explain...
 
G: I will devote some time.
 
PT: God created Adam and Eve in His image. This means that they were not created as automatons, but had free will.
 
G: If you tempt an innocent child with candy, how much "free-will" does the infant have? If just one human being on Earth truly has "free-will", God is not in control. If God does not change, as Biblically documented, then God, Himself, has no free-will.
 
(God does change often. The Bible lies.)
 
PT: He created them therefore, with the ability to follow Him, or not to.
 
G: Hummm, did you just allude that God created us with the ability to not obey? And then, God gives us "Eternal Torment" if we choose not to obey? That is a totally insane agenda! Even 1/3rd of the Angels in Heaven didn't follow or obey God. Obviously, this God isn't well liked by many in Heaven or on Earth.
 
PT: What good would it be, if God created us as automatons, programmed to follow God, and to never stray from that program?
 
G: What? What good would it be? That would save billions of souls from Eternal Torment. Would that be good in your value system? That some souls don't follow God and are given the sentence of Eternal Torment does seem to fulfill "God's pleasure". That is the reality, according to scripture, isn't it?
 
PT: Could we then really love God? No. Our love would not be authentic. BUT, God created us with the choice.
 
G: God is the most miserable, tyrannical, jealous, murderous and angry character in the entire Bible. Can you name any other Biblical character who is more so? Knowing what this God has done, anyone who would passionately love, promote, support and finance a character like this God is insane. They are certainly afraid that this God will send them into Eternal Torment if they don't. I personally choose to not be around this character, groveling, worshipping and serving Him for eternity - singing His praises minute after minute. Noooooo, thank you. 
 
PT: Same with Adam and Eve. They were created without iniquity, as Satan once was. However, they had free-will, which meant, they could stop fellowshipping with God, whenever they wanted.
 
G: If an inventor builds something that doesn't work right, it is the inventor's fault - isn't it? How can you correctly blame the thing that he or she invented?
 
PT: When Satan, and later, Adam and Eve choose to worship themselves, (When did they ever do that?) instead of the one true ever-loving God, they created iniquity within themselves. God created Satan, Adam, and Eve without iniquity, but, since they had free will, they had the ability to create iniquity within themselves, through their decisions. This is what happened.
 
G: Ergo, God was a flawed Creator to allow such a flaw. Check out my page: "Samantha" @
 
 
It is "relative" to this issue.
 
G: Jesus claimed not to change a jot of the Hebrew scripture - although He was guilty of it. That's on the "Jesus' Sins" page.
 
PT: Are you talking about Matthew 5:17? Because Jesus only spoke about certain laws. The laws in the Old Testament can be divided into three parts. The moral and civil parts were specific for Israel and for a certain time. Jesus refers here to the moral law, i.e. the Ten Commandments, which is given to us all, and lasts till the end of time.
 
G: Ask any Rabbi ("The O.T. is the book of the Jew's that Christians believe in" - according to comedian Lewis Black) and the Rabbi will instruct you that there are 613 commandments in the Torah. Obeying some of those commandments will land you on death row - like - the Bible commands you to kill gay men, sons that disobey and non-virgin girls.
 
PT: On if the earth will last forever, Jesus doesn't say here if the earth will pass or not. He only says that no jot or tittle shall pass from the law until the earth has passed. Jesus doesn't make a claim here about any passing of the earth or not. Just that the law will last as long as the earth will.
 
G: Sorry - this is a little confusing. The Bible states: Heaven and Earth shall pass away...
 
G: There are Bible C&Vs that indicate God created evil.
 
PT: God did not create evil directly. Here's an example: You have a child. The child grows up, and has a child. Did you procreate your child's child? Of course not. However, your child's child would not have been in existence, without you having your child. So, indirectly, you procreated your grandchild. This is how God created evil.
 
G: Ah, the working of inventive minds. God created Adam and Eve - who did not obey God. God had to view Adam and Eve as His human children and His first-generation evil. God judges what He considers to be evil and sends souls to Hell for eternity based on his tyrannical, egocentric value system. God's murderous deeds, in the Bible, prove that God has a murderous value system. Any love for this God, if He is totally known and understood, has to be based on fear. If believers love this God because He murders people and torments their souls for eternity - then, those believers prove to be insane.
 
PT: God created Satan, who in the beginning had no iniquity in him, until Satan used his God given free will to become evil. So, God created Satan, who at the beginning had no evil, but then Satan created evil within. God indirectly created evil.
 
G: If the serpent in the Garden of Eden was Satan, then, God put this evil "Satan" in the Garden with His newly created Adam and Eve - didn't He? What did this all-knowing, loving God know, expect or predict would happen? Yet, if this God is all-knowing, this God would torment souls forever for things He already knew were going to happen. Based on this Biblical scenario, either the Biblical God is a moron or God is a monster. Either way, believers claim to love this heinous entity - fictitious or not. If all-knowing God knew that Adam and Eve would fail, why did God create them? If God didn't know that Adam and Eve would fail, God is not all-knowing. Specifically, if God did know, God proves to be a monster.
 
PT: However, you also have to see the context surrounding the word evil, when mentioned in the Bible. Often 'evil' just means negativity, punishment, anger, etc. At some points in the Bible, God is said to have those reactions to certain sins His people did.
 
G: Did God ever react to the sins His people did? God made His "chosen people" slaughter other people so to steal their lands and when they didn't totally obey, God had them defeated and taken into slavery. Where do I sign up!
 
PT: The modern bible is not inerrant. Why do you  think it is? Why does it matter so much?
 
G: LOL! Why does it matter so much? Because believers believe in the Bible. They support it and promote it. Could that be why it matters so much? Anyone can go to C. Dennis McKinsey's "Biblical Errancy" web site to see all the Biblical errors @
 
 
G: Obedience is the reason God punishes and murders people. We all agree to that. Enemy combatants in Iraq refuse to obey Bush - so he kills them. Doesn't make it right, does it? This has been humanity's legacy due to this murderous God model.
 
PT: There's a big difference between Bush and God. God knows people's hearts, gave them a few chances to change, and he has to deal with people who make human sacrifices for false Gods.
 
G: God obviously did NOT know the hearts of Adam and Eve - did He? If God truly knew the hearts of Adam and Eve, He set them up for their fall. Didn't He? Then God punished all humanity throughout history for being sinful - because of Adam and Eve? What a God!
 
Here are a couple examples from the Ezekiel page:
 
Ezekiel 20:8-41 God said: (Israel) rebelled against Me and refused to listen to Me. They did not abandon the idols of Egypt. I gave them My statutes and Ordinances. They rebelled against Me. I thought to put an end to them. I swore not to bring them to the land I had given them. But, I looked at them with pity not wanting to destroy them. But, their children rebelled against Me.
 
PT: I wish I knew which version of the bible you were using and where exactly to read this but anyway I think you're talking about Ezekiel 20:26.
 
Ezekiel 20:26 I let them become defiled through their gifts--the sacrifice of every firstborn --that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.
 
But this is not a case of endorsing human sacrifice, but a case of God giving rebellious peoples what they want and deserve by giving them their "freedom".
 
G: God said here: I let them .... sacrifice their firstborn, didn't He? Do you think that the innocent first-born babies appreciated the fact that their loving God gave their parents the freedom to sacrifice them?
 
Regards,
 
Gary DeVaney

 

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Debate with Pastor Thor
 
by Gary DeVaney
 
 
 
 
Gary DeVaney: Hi Pastor Thor. I didn't share all our exchanges but I will share this exchange with all our panel-members.
 
THOR: Thank you.
 
G: I take issue with Jesus in Luke 19:27 "And, as for those who would not have Me be King over them, bring them before Me and slay them." And Revelation 2:23 where Jesus said that He would also kill the harlot's children. Jesus Christ lost me due to C&Vs like these.
 
T: If God does the same it is not wrong because He created them, He keeps them in existence for as long as He likes, and when He is done with them for whatever reason or no reason at all, He ends them.
 
G: Is this your response to Jesus saying: And, as for those who would not have Me be King over them, bring them before Me and slay them? And that Jesus would also kill the Harlot's children?
 
THOR: Yes.
 
G: Wow! Even some of our panel-members try to deny that Jesus referred to Himself in Luke 19:27. You are one stand-up pastor!
 
G: Parents create children. According to this model, to be God-like, they would have the same murderous right and some insane, God supporting parents have murdered their kids as a result. Some encourage their children to be cannon-fodder in war today. When their child is killed, some have said that they wish they had more children to sacrifice for their insane President and their heinous God. The Judeo-Christian God and the Koran Allah have provided a pretty sick world - don'tcha think? The Judeo-Christian God is the same murderous character as the insane Allah of the Koran. But - you knew that.
 
THOR: I do not agree that parents create children and therefore with anything you say that follows from that. I'm sorry to disappoint you but I am more ignorant than you realize. I do not know that Allah = God.
 
G: Yes. Both the Judeo-Christian God and the Allah of Islam are the God of Abraham. Isaac and Ishmael are the Judeo-Christian and the Islamic branches. Abraham is "the father" of all three religions.
 
T: I agree that the world is sick but I disagree as to the cause. By the way what do you think is the cure to the world's sickness?
 
G: I am glad you asked, Pastor Thor! I view the first step is to retire the Bible / Koran and their God / Allah to the Smithsonian Institute Library and like institutions as the primary horrendous models for mankind's murderous history. All religions should be retired. Humanist philosophy that respects human life should be promoted to influence and establish just laws, ethics and the legal models for humanity. The enforcement of equal, just laws should replace the blackmailing superstition of the past that controls the evil, the bias and the murderous lawmakers of the World today.
 
T: In fact, without God to reveal to us the possibility of eternal life we would have no idea that death was an evil thing at all. It would just be something we did not like.
 
G: Jesus brought Hell to His loyal Christians - didn't He? Nice gift - as the Torah Hebrews had no Hell. The Hebrew's Torah documentation was fundamentally dust to dust - wasn't it? Superstition later promoted that a supernatural, all seeing soul-executioner would eternally-torture those who did not subordinate, grovel, worship and kiss buttocks any who assumed a God-fearing position of authority over them.
 
G: You alluded that death is an evil thing - yet it is God who does all the killing. Logic would figure that the Biblical God is evil to human beings just as Jesus would be if you don't let Him be your King. Pardon me, Sir Thor, but I personally don't support or care to be around documented tyrants like that. I am a retired Army officer so I know that old, ancient murderous mind-set and agenda very well. President George W. Bush, who claims that God told him to attack Iraq, has no conscience about the half-million human beings that he has had killed - so far. It is the obedient, submissive mind-set support of God that serves Bush and those like him. The worship of the heinous Biblical God is how President George W. Bush gets away with his illegal murders. Bush breaks international and domestic laws just as the Biblical God constantly broke His Own "sacred laws" throughout the Old Testament. Our Presidents operate as God does by claiming to be above any laws documented. God and other "assumed authorities" are the "sacred models" that prove to be the most "evil" in our World. No "Satan" influences Bush's evil. In reality, clergy promoted God does it all.
 
THOR: I do not want to have this theological discussion with you but feel somewhat obligated to continue it, at least for a little while, out of gratitude for your helpfulness and because I did, after all, start it.
 
G: I know and I don't blame you. It is difficult dueling with Zorro. (Joke!) You see, Thor, Biblical debate is so much easier for us panel-members - as most of us have no God or anything we view Biblically "sacred" to defend. I personally like your manner as you don't try to authoritatively talk-down and waste our time by preaching and you do try to address our C&V issues.
 
T: I feel no obligation whatsoever to discuss politics with you.
 
G: I know. It really strikes home when one can see a true reason that God and His insane C&V laws are promoted so that Christians will lay down for heinous, God-like presidents to have their way, sacrificing us, without our complaint. Standing up to a U.S. President is almost as blasphemous to most believers as standing up against the Biblical God. God and religion is necessary to create and maintain the subordination of sacrificial soldiers by this ancient and hypnotic vehicle. I know that seeing this agenda is not comfortable for those who promote the agenda - as clergy must. Your job, as clergy, is to promote and maintain this obedient, life-stealing hypnosis. How does it feel to be responsible for and to promote this life-trashing agenda? The wealth of the most successful clergy is well documented. The US government pays well for those successful clergy's services to brain-wash and subordinate the peasants. Falwell and Robertson, et al, have had incomes and estates that wanna-be clergy would die for. Pastor Thor, have you encouraged anyone to NOT go kill people in Iraq? Did you feel pride and accomplishment when that zealous, young, believing, God-fearing soldier came back in a US flag-draped box? If you could, would you send him or her over to Iraq for a second time - to kill and die again? Would you? What is a decent conscience and do you have one? Explain, please.
 
T: I did allude to death as an evil thing but you apparently did not notice the context of my comment. The point was that without God to tell us about evil, death would just be an unpleasant fact of life.
 
G: I understand - and I accept your comment. The thing that God and Jesus, fictional or not, proceeded to do was to introduce Hell so to blackmail their loyal subjects to obey their "fictitious God authority" and evil men's "assumed authority" in fear of eternal-torment. The "unpleasant fact" of mere death is tough - but it is so much easier to deal with than the heinous model of eternal-torment. Wouldn't you agree?
 
T: While we do now have an idea that death is evil, it is really only evil by association. Death is the consequence of our own evil it is not in, and of itself, evil.
 
G: You just again described the core and blackmail of the God / obedience game.
 
T: These issues fit into my category of "the old problem of evil." I believe you already know that. I'm seeking to discover new categories, not engage in endless debate.
 
G: My 25 years of developing and debating "The God Murders" that is on my web site reminds me that these 2 C&V issues concerning Jesus are the ones clergy and layman alike try to avoid most. What new or more important C&V issues can the non-changing Bible produce for you? The C&Vs won't go away and they don't change. Most of us, on the panel, view that the Bible says what It means and means what It says. People love to spin them to protect God and try to make the Biblical God look good - but the C&Vs don't change and stubbornly won't go away. Knowing what the Biblical God is truly like by His documented C&V deeds, how can anyone with a conscience believe in, support, promote and finance this insane Character - fictional or not?
 
THOR: I'm sorry. I need some explanation here. What are C&Vs?
 
G: LOL! Sorry. C&V is Chapter & Verse. C&Vs are what we on the panel focus on, address, and take issue with. If it isn't a debate on Biblical C&V, most of Dennis' panel aren't much interested.
 
T: It would be great if you could hold this down to just two issues! I gather one is the problem of evil. I'm working on a little paper for ya'll about that. Maybe I am being dense, but what is the other one again?
 
G: Gee Thor, I don't know your 2 issues (oops, 1 was evil) - as my C&V 2 issues of Luke 19:27 and Revelation 2:23 were clearly stated. Evil was not an issue that I initially addressed - except for how assumed and temporary authorities - like insane Presidents - generate illegal and evil deeds through their projected God-fearing behaviors. Again, I view that the historical purpose for God and His superstitious religions is for "assumed authorities" to have their way over superstitious, hypnotized, brainwashed, mind-set and legally blinded human beings. Most of their consciences have died. You have to have a decent conscience to know right from wrong. Would you have Iraq attack the US as the US attacked Iraq, Pastor Thor?
If your answer is yes - you are insane. If your answer is no - we, the USA, are wrong.
 
T: If you are not responding to my request for help what is your motive in responding to me?
 
G: A panel that I participate on is with my good friend C. Dennis McKinsey. His 2 books are the best on Earth, to my knowledge, to point out Biblical errors, inconstancies and contradictions. Judeo-Christian clergy would be well-equipped to have the knowledge those books contain. Although, I view that most clergy would no longer be clergy if they truly learned the C&V content of those books. I've been watching your mostly "on topic" responses to Dennis and other panel members. Hang in with us Pastor Thor as you are more interesting, courteous, courageous and "on topic" than most clergy who address us. Most clergy just preach, threaten, condemn, and then cut and run. You have not done much of that. I sincerely congratulate you for that.
 
 
THOR: I am chagrined that your flattery actually works with me. I'll hang a bit longer. If you are not going to explain your motives or goals can you give me some idea how to recognize the end of this debate?
 
G: Sir Thor, we, on the panel, are not bad or evil people. I've personally never spent a night in jail. Most of us truly appreciate your debate and your time. We are on a crusade for the truth of what the Bible C&Vs (Chapters & Verses) honestly and actually say and what they mean as written.
 
You, in good conscience, can't fault us for that - can you Pastor Thor?
 
 

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Thor: You eviscerated my apology to someone else.  What am I supposed to think?
 
G: You admitted to "sarcasm" when honest debate concerning serious subjects (charges against the Bible and its God) is requested.
 
T: What questions have you asked that I did not answer? I do not answer false dichotomies in the form of a "yes" and "no" question whose answer is something other than "yes" or "no." I do not answer other kinds of loaded questions. I will be not be manipulated into stepping on your verbal land mines.
 
G: "Verbal land mines"! Then debate is superficial to you. Answering specific questions gets to the bottom line of an issue.
 
These "land mines" that you attempt to avoid often gets zealous believes to actually admit that they know God creates evil.
 
Then fewer believers actually admit that they know God really is evil to humanity.
 
And then, some believers blow-up completely on these "verbal land mines" by admitting that they support, promote and finance this evil God - and some actually become aware that they, as conformed believers, are really evil themselves - and they hope nobody likes it.  
 
Yes, Sir Thor, these are the ultimate "verbal land mines" that you try to avoid.
 
Due to your endurance and capacity in debating the panel, Sir Thor, I view you are exceptional.
 
T: I do not wear white armor.  I do not believe I am responsible for correcting all the wrongs in the world. 
 
G: I claim the Bible is wrong by what is written C&V and you being clergy, it is not obvious why you don't respond to it's wrongs.
 
T: I am not responsible for reviewing and correcting the contents of billions of web pages. 
 
G: Then, being a clergy, you are claiming that the Bible's moral, legal and technical wrongs that are taken issue with are not your concern? Why not be honest and tell that to your congregation?
 
T: I have my own research interests. I can not imagine why you would think It proper to demand that I abandon them in favor of looking at your web site.
 
G: At this level of debate it's kinda like "Dueling with Zorro" - isn't it? Most believers stick their sword in the sand and walk away - after a farewell "Eternal Damnation" threat - that is. Now, do you want to take on The God Murders or have you lost your sword? And, don't claim that I am angry. I'm not angry. I'm just geared for some specific topics that others seem to back off from. I am not religiously or politically correct. I don't do obedience and I take issue with bad characters where ever they show up. The air is thin here and I'm somewhat alone - but it's the level of debate that I'm personally comfortable with. My web site drew 6,882 visitors and 25,992 hits in June. What is posted there C&V must be of some interest. And, like Dennis, my time is limited as I respond to numerous daily inquires.
 
This panel's interest is the Bible and its God. Dennis, and I have web sites that take the Bible apart. Typically, as Bart said, you are only interested in topics that support your preaching - not Biblical content.
 
T: Your web site like your e-mails is full of exegetical and logical fallacies. 
 
G: "Critical explanation / logical fallacies"? Here, again, you make claims that that you don't produce evidence of. The only thing that is illogical on my web site is the Bible C&Vs that I take apart.
 
T: When I point them out in our correspondence you neither acknowledge them nor improve.  
 
G: Not so, Sir Thor. Like my response to your statement right here, I address each point you make - whereby you do not.
 
At the end of each page on my site I ask for corrections and that if something I wrote proved to be in error, I would correct it. You have not once submitted one correction, have you?
 
T: Why would I want to waste my time on someone who can not or will not learn?
 
G: Learning does not occur until there is a change of behavior. Are you sure your agenda is to have me "learn" from you or is your agenda to "stop me from doing what I do". Is your agenda to convert my will to serve this heinous monster / tyrant of a God?
 
My web site does not major in minor issues. It takes on the issues that prove:
 
"The Biblical God is not a good God and the Bible is not a good model for humanity."
 
It is time for the Bible and its God to be retired to the Smithsonian Institute Library as the worst model in the history of humanity.  
 
Many clergy claim to serve God - but only in an advisory capacity.
 
To be God's defense attorney, clergy proves to be virtually unarmed.
 
Regards, Gary DeVaney

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Gary had said:

 

Hi L. Thanks for your input. It is one of the wisest perspectives I've seen to get God off on murder charges. Our President George W. Bush is counting on this kind of defense to clear him of international crimes and mass-murder. According to the Bible, God appointed him, you know. I'll share this exchange with our panel.

 

Regards, Gary DeVaney

 

L asked: Where in the Bible is GWB appointed by “God” ??  This I have to see!

 

L

 

Gary's answer: In the Bible-

 

Romans 13:1-7 Let every person be subject to governing authorities. God has appointed those who exist in authority. Rulers are only a terror to your bad conduct. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Do what is good and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your own good. If you do wrong, be afraid. He does not wear his weapon for show. He is a servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrong-doer. For the same reason, you must also pay taxes, respect and honor to all who are due.

 

This is a great Biblical source as to the why and how this wrathful God was created by tyrants. This same Biblical God is still used today as a tool, a weapon to greedily oppress, blackmail, subordinate, manipulate, enslave, and to extort the lives from God-fearing, naïve believers.

  

Regards,

 

Gary DeVaney

 

 

Hi Gary, We will just have to disagree on what Paul meant in Romans 13.

 

G: Hi L. Ok.

 

L: True, none of what happened to Jesus would have happened if the Jews had not arrested him, but that misses the entire point under discussion.  My point was that Paul was not in league with the civil rulers of his day (Roman or otherwise) and would not have written Romans 13 regarding them.  Civil rulers are not the “ministers” of God. 

 

G: Romans 13:1-7 Let every person be subject to governing authorities. God has appointed those who exist in authority. Rulers are only a terror to your bad conduct.

 

"Governing authorities" are civil rulers, L. It says:"Those who exist in authority / rulers". Paul, a Roman citizen and a Benjamite Jew, described Governing authorities and civil rulers here - not Jewish religious leaders or ministers of God.

 

L: Only God’s called men in the church are that. Even most of them are pretenders. Civil rulers in Rom. 13? Sorry Gary, no way!

 

G: Again, it appears that we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

L: I am not sure why you mention “Augustus”, I did not. 

 

G: Correct. I mentioned Augustus. I am participating in an intellectual dialog. I am not subject to an authoritative lecture.

 

L: I do not know if Augustus was personally responsible for persecuting Christians per se, but Rome did not tolerate any disturbance in the empire and the Christian church was a diametrically opposed organization to the structure of Roman culture and philosophy; I.e. Christians would not worship the emperor, etc…

 

G: Augustus was the tyrant at the time (like George W. Bush is now) and the Bible says nothing of his participation in Jesus' crucifixion. He was the over-all governing authority. It says that God has appointed those who exist in authority. Rulers are only a terror to your bad conduct.  Ergo, It qualifies. There is no Biblical C&V that says Augustus even knew of Jesus Christ.

 

L: You ask, “like George Bush?”  George seems to be a recurring theme with you.  I have never brought him up and I don't think he is “God’s man” any more that Billy Boy Clinton was.  I care not for either and I don't know why you keep mentioning him.  It seems irrelevant to me because (as I said earlier) I think Satan has a lot more to do with civil rulers in this present age than God does (Luke 4:5, 6). 

 

G: Thanks for bringing that up, L. Much, if you've noticed, of my site is dedicated to our tyrannical, murderous, god-like President George W. Bush. "Praying is obeying" and George W. Bush wants you and all Christians on your knees begging God for a "sign" so that Bush, an "assumed" authority, can easily step-in and be zealously obeyed by these God-fearing sheeple. So far, it's worked like a charm for him - hasn't it?

 

L: You (Gary) said: “The God of the Bible is NOT a good God and the Bible is NOT a good model for humanity.”

 

G: I certainly did, Sir L.

 

L: I might ask a Clinton-like question:  “It depends on what the meaning of “good” is. 

 

G: "GOOD": Beneficial, the right thing to do, "to not do to others what you would not want done to you" - for starters. That's really a good question, L, because in this "Christian Nation" 1 out of every 137 Christians are incarcerated in the US prison system and, obviously, they did not know the definition of "Good". L, outside of the "Myth of Creation", can you list C&V what the Biblical God did "GOOD" for someone without hurting someone else? I'm betting you won't list anything - or that it would be a short list. Whatcha think?

 

L: I can only say that if you feel this way it is because you are not on His side and do not have long term view of what God is really doing. 

 

G: Hummm. You suggest that I'm not on the Biblical God's or George W. Bush's side. Hummm.

 

1. I was not on God's side when He murdered all the first born babies of Egypt - just to let everybody know who was God around there.

 

2. I was not on God's side when He ordered the murdering and destruction of scores of cities in order to steal their lands.

 

3. I was not on God's side when He marched His {about 3 million} "chosen" (Torah notes) around the desert until they died to punish them for not murdering and stealing for the land that God "promised" them.

 

4. I am not on George W. Bush's side when he broke Constitutional law, US law, International law, and the Geneva Convention laws to wage an illegal and immoral pre-emptive war on a country that could not defend itself. Bush did this so to control an area with the largest known world-oil-reserves. That oil is theirs, L - not ours. If the USA can not compete, shame on us. The USA's action amounts to armed-theft of another country's goods. If you support that, you are an accomplice. We assume "might makes right" entitlement. That's seems popular among God-fearing believers. These zealous believers seem deeply committed to a "kill them all" mentality? They claim entitlement and demand not to be disobeyed nor disrespected! Right, L? Sig-heil!

 

It appears, L, that you side with God and Bush on these listed atrocities. Long term? Look at God's long murderous history. Look at the future by seeing what George W. Bush has forced the current and immediate US generations to face. Look at what the middle-east now has to face. Would you have killed those 1,000,000 Iraqis, L? Are they bad people and should die just because they don't believe like you? Do you personally feel "entitled" to what those dying and suffering Iraqis have? Whatcha think, L?

 

L: Some would say that thrusting a knife into the belly of child is a cruel act perpetrated upon the innocent; others (who know what is really happening) would understand that the surgeon’s scalpel is removing a life threatening tumor from the child’s liver and is ultimately going to save its life. 

 

G: Sell that scenario to the families and loved-ones of the 1,000,000 Iraqis that Bush has murdered and to the millions that he has injured. George W. Bush had Americans do to others what Americans would not want others to do to us. Didn't he? If your God ordered and approved of this atrocity, your God is as insane as Bush.

 

L: In regards to God, many atheists (and theists for that matter) are in the first category.  I feel you are criticizing something that you do not understand and actually know very little about. That does not necessarily make you a bad person, it does however, make you wrong. It, also, is not altogether your fault if God does not let you in on His secrets, that is up to Him.  I do feel your sincerity and I am of the opinion that your beliefs are at least from an honest heart.  I also understand that I could be the one who is wrong, but I (like you) am simply voicing my opinion of things the way I see them; nothing more.

 

G: L, I work with you on what you believe. Everybody learns at their own pace. Believing is always short of knowing. I'm always trying to learn so that I may know - not believe. My web site openly displays what I think, perceive and presume to know. I've not written "I believe" once on it. If you find something on my site that is in error, please send in the correction. If the error and its correction proves to be valid, I assure you it will be corrected and you will be sincerely thanked for finding and offering the correction. 

 

Sincerely

 

L

 

Regards,

Gary DeVaney

 

Dear Gary D.,

 

G: Hi L.

 

L: I cannot help noticing when reading your e-mails that you are not responding to me but to your own agenda.

 

G: I almost daily receive e-mails concerning the content of my web site. I am accustomed to responding to any debate on the site's content - which is my agenda. I have little time for much else.

 

L:  You don't really seem to be listening, only talking. 

 

G: I try to respond to each point of substance that the write-in posts. Even yours, L.

 

L: I, like you, am not subject to an authoritative lecture. 

 

G: Good. Because, I try even harder to recognize, analyze and respond to every point you post.

 

L: If you are an atheist, then obviously you cannot think that “god” appointed GWB.

 

G: Religious believers respond to the Bible's concept that: "Our leaders are to be respected and obeyed because God put them there over us." Of course, that's not true, nor real - it's just an another religious, authoritarian belief (and assumption of obedience) that logical, reasonable and realistic people have to put up with. When it comes to believer's expectations - outside of enforceable civil and criminal laws - I don't do obedience. 

  

L: I agree with you that God did not appoint “W”, I think I told you who I think is in charge of such things.

 

G: Satan? There is no evidence that Satan exists any more than does the Biblical God. The Book of Job, chapters 2-3, displays that the (fictitious) Satan character can do no more than what the (fictitious) God character allows him to. Doesn't it? God said to Satan: You enticed Me against him (Job). God took the "hit" on the murders of Job's children and servants and what happened to Job. And this was also Biblical C&V evidence that God was enticed / tempted by Satan. These Bible C&Vs, that stubbornly won't go away, prove that your Biblical God hasn't got much real character. And, this God / Character judges us? What hypocrisy!

 

L: In my opinion you are blaming God for the actions of others.

 

G: Na, the Bible uses C&Vs to explain what specifically God did throughout the Old Testament. You obviously did not absorb or probably did not get through "The God Murders". It appears that the strongest believers prove to be the weakest when trying to get completely through "The God Murders."

 

L: Perhaps you would like things better if Osama bin Laden were in charge.

 

G: Check out the official FBI wanted poster for Osama bin Laden. He is not wanted for 9-11. How do you account for or explain that, Sir L? After suddenly wanting to research that extremely important claim, when you find it valid, let me know your spin, Sir L.

 

 L: He would love to get his hands on all the atheists and lop off their Allah-disbelieving heads.  Ha ha…  I am not in love with “W” but your I don't think he has called for the demise of any significant number of Atheists lately.

 

G: Granted, in the middle-east and other Islamic countries, I would probably be dead due to my outspoken web site. That may eventually happen here. Come on. Don't get your hopes up! You'd miss me, L.

 

L: You said, “That oil is there's, L - not ours.”  Did you mean “That oil is theirs …not ours”? 

 

G: Gasp! Sorry, thanks for the correction. I'm so embarrassed. I have corrected it.

 

L: And by the way, are we “stealing” their oil?  I haven’t heard that and I cannot find any evidence to back up your remark. 

 

G: News flash: The US troops have killed 1,000,000 Iraqis in the conquest and occupation of Iraq. Nothing happens in Iraq's inter-workings - including its oil industry - without US consent.

 

L: It looks like to me that the oil coming out of Iraq is being sold by Iraqis and it seems to me that we are trying to give back the country to the people instead of the tyrant.

 

G: That suggests that the US murdered 1,000,000 Iraqis just to overthrow 1 man. That's kinda heavy-handed, illegal and immoral politics, isn't it? Saddam was once our "bastard"- remember? The US gave Saddam all the WMDs that he used on his Kurds and on Iran, didn't we? "The biggest, little discussed, reason that Saddam was "taken out" was because of the selling of Iraqi oil for Euro-dollars instead of selling Iraq's oil for US dollars. If Saddam had not done that, he would still be in power today": "Confessions of an Economic Hit-Man" by John Perkins. (Great book!) This is backed-up by statements made by our former head of the Federal Reserve Bank, Alan Greenspan, and some retired military Generals, officers, enlisted men and retired CIA operatives, who were in "hands-on" positions. 

 

L: Would you feel better if Uncle Saddam were back in power?  

 

G: Yes, because a million Iraqis, a few thousand Americans and some foreign allied troops would still be alive. Bush has killed many more Iraqis and US troops than Saddam. Shouldn't Bush go? Even General George Patton pissed-off President Harry S. Truman by deciding to leave the Emperor of Japan on the throne after Japan surrendered so to keep Japan politically together. It worked. Patton wisely prevented in post-war Japan the political fiasco that Iraq is going through.

 

 L: I am not sure who the oil belongs to, it seems that in the history of the world that the land belongs to he who can take it. 

 

G: Sorry L - but that is spoken like a true thief.

 

 L: I am not saying that is right,

 

G: Phew! I'm so glad. You had me worried for a nano-second.

 

L: I am saying that that is the way that it is, and if there is no God then the only law that exist is the law of the jungle “might makes right”.

 

G: I wrote a page on "Might Makes Right": http://WWW.thegodmurders.Com/id101.HTML There's no sense being redundant on this post when I've already done the work.

 

L: But, I know God exists, therefore I believe that “right makes might” and not the other way around.

 

G: You still support the Biblical God knowing that He ordered His "Chosen" to murder scores of cities so to steal their land? Sorry L - but that is spoken like one who has the heart of a true murderer and a thief. That's nothing new. That's just another example of what believing in the Biblical God does to the true character of believers.

 

L: As far as the 1st born of the polytheistic Egyptians are concerned, I suppose you would have preferred that they should have been allowed to use the Hebrews as slaves forever! They were murdering, raping, abusing, and using them for centuries. 

 

G: Yes, slavery was condoned by God. Might made right determined as to who served who. Early America brought that Bible / God-approved slave-model to this land. It was the getting away from that God-model that helped eliminate legal slavery in this country.

 

L: I guess that was OK though.  How many of the Hebrew firstborns were killed by the Egyptians? Do you remember why Moses was put into a basket on the Nile? 

 

G: Yep. Always "in-control" God fought evil with more evil. The (evil) Bible orchestrated the Moses story so that God arranged for all those Hebrew children to die. Dare you say that God was NOT in control of these events?

 

 L: I say that if it took God going to war with the Egyptians and if it took killing their firstborn in that war to get Pharaoh to release the Hebrews, then war is war. 

 

G: LOL. You are conveniently forgetting that your "do-right" God forced Pharaoh to disobey him between each and every plague. God "hardened Pahraoh's heart" / made him disobey - 10 times.

 

Exodus: http://WWW.thegodmurders.Com/id29.HTML covers that in more detail than you'd like.

   

L: At least Pharaoh was warned beforehand and given a choice; that is more than he gave the poor crying Hebrew mothers when his soldiers came to take the firstborn of his slaves. All he would have had to do was to release the Hebrew slaves and he could have spared all his own firstborn. Pharaoh gave no such options to his slaves.  He and Egypt got what their slave driving asses deserved.

 

G: So, what you have proved here is that the Biblical God was just as evil as the earlier Pharaoh. And God took it out on people who had nothing to do with the earlier Pharaoh's decision to murder those Hebrew children.

 

L: I assume the “Sig-heil!” was included for prevocational purposes?  Pssssst… its not working.  Wasn’t Uncle Adolph supposed to be like the “Atheist-in-chief” or something? 

 

G: Sorry. Incorrect again, Sir L. Adolf Hitler was Catholic and most of his speeches included God in much the same way that Bush does. I can send you a few dozen of his speeches for your verification from my computer library - but only if you generate enough desire for the information to request those "God-inspired" speeches. 

 

L: It seems to me I read where he was a vegetarian atheist who couldn’t get it up and that the whole “Eva Braun” thing was just for show.

 

G: I agree that Hitler was a heinous, evil and a somewhat "unusual" piece of work. So is Bush! But, Bush is our bastard, right? NO! The Bush gang has got to go NOW before he does more damage to the USA and to the world!

 

L: Let’s see, something “good” God did?  Hmmmmmmm… Oh, I’ve got it!  He let you live another day. 

 

G: Yes! But, that appears to hurt believers. Next? Something that God did GOOD from God's diary, the Bible, please.

 

 L: He is verrrry patient…. Ha ha ha… ;-)  (now who is provoking who?) 

 

G: Do you have Bible C&V evidence of God being patient?

 

L: I guess if God doesn’t even exist then there is nothing either good or bad that He has done.

 

G: As predicted, that's a pretty short list, L. Are you sure that your God is the Biblical God? That sounds like your defining a human ego more than the Biblical God, concerning patience. Is it your patience that you feel is being tested? The difficulty you feel here is in the Biblical side of our debate, I pretty much stay on Bible C&V to prove my side of the debate - while you are winging it all over the place. But, then again, no believer can debate my selected Bible C&Vs on behalf of God and appear sane.

 

L: I agree with you 100% that much of the evil in the world can and should be laid at the feet of religion.

 

G: Amen! And the "God of Abraham" (Koran / Bible) is the foundation of most religious believers on planet Earth. That's your God, the "God of Abraham"- isn't it, L? It is also Islam's Allah.

 

L: I think that one of the places that we go a parting of the ways is that I do not believe that “God” is responsible for most of “religion”. I think “Old Nick” rules most of that too, unbeknownst to the deists who presume to represent Him.  They are no better than the religious Pharisees who crucified their own Messiah.

 

G: “Old Nick” is not mentioned C&V in any Bible I have. Who is this heinous entity? My friend Bart Floyd once asked: Throughout human history, how many gods have there been? The answer is obvious: "Almost one god for each human ego." Almost - because Atheists admit to having no god - just an ego.

 

L: I am hoping you are having another great day,

 

Thanks, L - you too.

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