Pastor Arnold Murray
Pastor Murray: Abraham and Sarah had the same father but different mothers. Genesis 20:12 determines that they were half brother and sister and they were man and wife. In the earlier part of replenishing the Earth, this (incest) was necessary.
Gary: Pastor Murray accurately defined Abraham and Sarah’s incest relationship. Then, Murray made an excuse for their incest relationship. His excuse was bogus, as there were multitudes of human beings living, at the time, on Planet Earth.
Genesis 20:2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister. King Abimelech sent for and took Sarah.
Her Half-Brother Abraham
G: Abraham lied by omitting to his man / wife relationship with Sarah. Liars are cowards because they are afraid that they will be caught being guilty of something authority does not approve of. Or, they lie so they can profit from others. Manipulative liars have ego-driven fears / motivations to lie. Abraham is no exception. The Biblical C&Vs document that Abraham was a liar. Abraham profited greatly. Pastor Murray authoritatively defends the Biblical God’s heroes – no matter what they did. He boasts that he is blessed and it is obvious that he profits from his “God-fearing” support. Murray is of “THE ELECT” and does not need to fear God. We are SINNERS and we had best be “God-fearing”.
M: And many would say – wouldn’t that be incest? No. Where is the law against incest? Have you read of it?
G: Yes, Pastor Murray. I have read it and so have you. What Abraham and Sarah did was against God’s law of incest.
Here is the Biblical God’s documented C&V law:
Leviticus 20:17 If a man takes his sister, even a half-sister, who is the daughter of his father or mother, they will be cut off from their people. Since he committed incest with his sister, he shall bear his guilt. Torah / KJV / Catholic
G: Why were Abraham and Sarah, a union of incest, chosen by the Biblical, in control, know-it-all, God?
G: Ham, with his mother – Abraham, with his half-sister Sarah, Jacob – with his 1st cousins Rachel & Leah, Lot – with his daughters and Moses’ father, Amram – with his father’s sister, all God’s Biblical Heroes, committed God’s forbidden by law, incest. They all broke the unchanging Biblical God’s laws.
G: Moses was a product of incest according to:
Exodus 6:20 Exodus 6:20 Amram took Jochebed his father’s sister for his wife. She bore him Aaron and Moses. (And Miriam.)
G: Moses is supposed to have written the Torah which included Leviticus 18:12 Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister…
By writing Leviticus 18:12, Moses certainly did not honor his father and mother – did he? These “heroes” were all people – who the Biblical God chose – to fulfill God’s “sacred” Biblical agendas.
M: We know what it was to “uncover your father’s nakedness”. That was a law.
G: Murray claims that Ham, Noah’s son, “uncovered his father’s nakedness” by having sex with Noah’s wife, Ham’s mother. She, with no name, gave birth to Canaan, Ham’s son. Noah cursed innocent Canaan. Noah did not curse guilty Ham for his sin. Canaan was the founder of the Canaanites who owned the “sacred” land that later became Jerusalem. The Biblical God ordered His “chosen” Israelites to murder the Canaanites so to steal their land.
Genesis 9:20 – 23 Noah 21 drank some wine, became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father’s nakedness and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father’s nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father’s nakedness.
Leviticus 18:8 The nakedness of thy wife shalt thou not uncover: It is thy father’s nakedness. KJV
Ham had sex with his mother, Noah’s wife?
G: To make the Biblical God’s laws absolutely clear:
Unlawful Sexual Relations
6 No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the Lord.
G: Ham, Abraham, Lot, Jacob and Amram, Moses’ father, all violated God’s law # 6.
G: Adam, having Eve formed from his rib, was too incest-ridiculous to include.
7 Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
Mother & Son?
G: Ham, one who God chose to be on Noah’s Arc, broke God’s laws # 6 & # 7.
(Click on the law number to see the actual Bible C&V.)
8 Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father.
Now, Ham has violated God’s laws # 6, # 7 & # 8.
9 Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.
G: Abraham – with his half-sister, Sarah, broke God’s laws # 6 & # 9.
11 Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister.
Abraham has now violated God’s laws # 6, # 9 & # 11.
12 Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative.
Moses is a product of this incest as examined in # 12.
Exodus 6:20 Amram took is father’s sister Jochebed to wife. They had Aaron and Moses. (And Miriam)
G: Moses is credited for writing the Torah – the first 5 books of what Christians call the Bible. Moses wrote in Leviticus 18:12 Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative. By writing this, Moses did not honor his father and mother – did he?
26 God said: You must keep my decrees and my laws.
God’s Finger-Written Laws Or Reality Laws
30 God said: Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the Lord your God.”
G: Pastor Murray constantly preaches truth, integrity and all the hypnotic good stuff. So, why would Pastor Murray hypocritically ignore his unchanging God’s documented laws concerning God’s Biblical heroes? Why did the Biblical God ignore the fact that His heroes broke His incest laws? Why does Murray constantly excuse the Biblical God’s heroes from breaking those incest laws?
M: Abraham and Sarah were half brother and sister. We know that God chose Abraham and Sarah as man and wife. And, there you be – nothing else said.
G: What arrogance! Again, Murray authoritatively dismissed the breaking of his God’s laws because it was God’s “chosen” who broke the laws. That is hypocrisy. Correct me if you dare to, Pastor Murray. Use logical debate – because your, and your God’s, usual might-makes-right and voodoo threats mean nothing to me.
Murray goes on to praise God’s “Divine Intervention”. God put plagues on Pharaoh – which gained great wealth for Abraham. Because the Bible documents: “Pharaoh took Sarah” does this mean that Abraham was paid off like a pimp? Murray would become unglued with righteous indignation concerning this “God / Hero / Pimp” prospect.
If Murray were not so old, he would arrogantly volunteer to “take me behind the woodshed” – which I would eagerly welcome. After studying his tyrannical, belligerent rant for almost 20 years, a face to face would well be in order behind the woodshed (no weapons allowed). Or, we can settle our differences in a public debate on my selected Bible C&Vs. I don’t need to hear his hypnotic, authoritative preaching. I need to hear him debate those selected, controversial Bible C&Vs.
Murray’s Behind The Woodshed
Jacob had four wives. Two of them, Rachael and Leah, were Bible C&V documented daughters of his uncle Laban. My Torah notes suggested that the other two wives, Bilhah and Zilpah, may have also been Laban’s daughters by different mothers. If so, Jacob’s “twelve tribes of Israel” were all products of incest. Eight of the sons by Rachael and Leah definitely were products of incest.
If the Biblical God was against incest, why are most of His Torah (the first 5 books of the Bible) heroes products of incest? Was God out of control of this? Is the Bible contradictory or is this plain hypocrisy?
Pastor Murray has not addressed Jacob and His wives, concerning incest, to my knowledge.
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Questions / Comments?